Curse

Racthoh · Nov 30, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

One final thought - if *you* want more challenge than what you feel that you have right now, then it's up to you to figure out how to make things more challenging. That's why people came up with things like solo monks in the UW, 5, 3, and 2 man farming teams in SF, etc. etc. etc. Just because *you* don't think it's challenging enough doesn't mean that you shoudl ruin things for other people. These things don't really affect you - so why change them? Why do people get their panties up in a bunch over stuff like this? Go ahead and find a way to make it more challenging for you - figure out how to create that uber build so you can do something that few others can do - then go ahead and watch everyone whine and cry for nerfing because they can't do it, or they don't like it. See how you feel about it after a while.

The solo monks were created to farm, not for a challenge. Had they been for a challenge, players wouldn't have freaked when the build was leaked all over the Internet. I'm sorry but the fact that those monks could stand against a level 29 aatxe for hours while you went to a movie doesn't seem like a challenge to me. THAT needed to be fixed. Now the UW farming actually requies some skill. It has been fixed and it's better this way.

However, I don't see how people can claim they have skill/experience when they allow their main warrior to simply hold an item. What the hell was the point in adding new content when the old methods of exploitation still apply? I used to farm SF with four henchmen, that was actually fun. I didn't need to hold a keg while doing the bonus at Ice Caves of Sorrow to beat several groups of mursaat with uninfused henchmen. It isn't impossible to do these tasks, just that players refuse to learn.

I shouldn't complain because that is the way people want to play the game. But, players like myself who don't want to exploit these tricks and actually want to get into groups can't. Why? I stopped doing Sorrow's because every district was "Forming 5 man gear farming group" or something of the like. How fair is it that the players who actually want the challenge can't get it without resorting to henchmen? Our numbers are too few and it's disgusting.

Too bad all the new warriors who are going through the game as we speak will spend more time holding a gear than a sword or axe or hammer.

The AoE nerf couldn't make me happier. It's amazing, the number of stupid people is thinning. Farming really was just a way to achieve a god-like sensation since wealth = aesthetics and nothing more. Hopefully if they do nerf this exploit I could actually look forward to FoW again with a group.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

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Originally Posted by striderkaaru

at first, i thought that you misunderstood the OP, but now i know that you didn't. regarding some of your previous posts, if you feel like this "trick" is the only thing that makes you useful, then i would seriously suggest taking a second look at the skills at your disposal. i don't mean to be harsh, but if you were really good, you wouldn't need this trick.

No - again that's a separate issue, and I stated it badly.

That was more in relation to some other recent comments about how Necros are overpowered. Suddenly, after being "useless" since the beginning of the game, the AoE nerf has made them useful - and hence "overpowered." It was another issustration.

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and yes, i understand how complicated it would be to fix this. it does make sense for the enemies to make whoever is holding an important object as a higher priority. however, the problem is that players are exploiting this fact. i'm not quite sure how, but it does need to be addressed.

Where is the problem? Again - if you don't like it, don't do it. Problem solved.

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and your analogy regarding the television is a bit off. if i don't like the show, i can just change the channel and not care about it. however, in this case, people who are used to the trick find themselves in my party. so it does, in fact, affect my gameplay.

And runners affect my gameplay, because I have a hard time finding players who actually want to play the missions and quests anymore. Adapt. Team up with people who feel the same way you do. Run with your guildies. Adapt. That's part of what I meant by "creating your own challenge." It isn't right to try to force others to play the game the way you want it played.

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what do i do when i find myself in a fow group with a warrior who doesn't know what to do when he's not holding something? what do i do with an elem who is used to mindlessly nuking enemies who sit there and take it? what happens when the enemies rush past the warrior because he isn't holding something and the elem is now useless because they won't stay in one spot? that group of 8 just became a group of 6. what a waste of my time and 125 gold. so in fact, people who don't develop their playstyles and rely on these exploits do affect my gameplay.

So in essence, this is another matter where you believe that people should play the game the way that you want to play it, whether they want to play it or not. The entire customer base of GW should be forced to adapt to your playing style. That's egocentric, and it's wrong.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The solo monks were created to farm, not for a challenge. Had they been for a challenge, players wouldn't have freaked when the build was leaked all over the Internet. I'm sorry but the fact that those monks could stand against a level 29 aatxe for hours while you went to a movie doesn't seem like a challenge to me. THAT needed to be fixed. Now the UW farming actually requies some skill. It has been fixed and it's better this way.

However, I don't see how people can claim they have skill/experience when they allow their main warrior to simply hold an item. What the hell was the point in adding new content when the old methods of exploitation still apply? I used to farm SF with four henchmen, that was actually fun. I didn't need to hold a keg while doing the bonus at Ice Caves of Sorrow to beat several groups of mursaat with uninfused henchmen. It isn't impossible to do these tasks, just that players refuse to learn.

You miss the point. Skill isn't only how you play your character. Skill is also how you build your character. That was one of the main ambitions of the game to begin with - to skillfully create a build.

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I shouldn't complain because that is the way people want to play the game. But, players like myself who don't want to exploit these tricks and actually want to get into groups can't. Why? I stopped doing Sorrow's because every district was "Forming 5 man gear farming group" or something of the like. How fair is it that the players who actually want the challenge can't get it without resorting to henchmen? Our numbers are too few and it's disgusting.

Once again, I'll use this illustration:

I like to play missions and quests with my characters. How fair is it to me that the majority of players just want to be run from place to place? I go into places and have a hard time finding a PUG to play through a mission or quest. PUGs are one of *my* ideas of challenge and fun - and for a developing character making "the journey" it's getting pretty difficult anymore. Does this mean that I should whine and rant about it until ANet changes it? Well - there's plenty of people doing that. But I'd rather just find another way of enjoyign the game - so I do. Now I have the challenge of doing a lot of the things with henchies - and that's a whole new thing for me (since I brought 3 other characters all the way through the game with PUGs).

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Too bad all the new warriors who are going through the game as we speak will spend more time holding a gear than a sword or axe or hammer.

Only in a very few areas. Everywhere else, they need to fight or be run. You make it sound like they pick up a gear in pre and never put it down....

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The AoE nerf couldn't make me happier. It's amazing, the number of stupid people is thinning. Farming really was just a way to achieve a god-like sensation since wealth = aesthetics and nothing more. Hopefully if they do nerf this exploit I could actually look forward to FoW again with a group.

Yeah - and hilariously enough - since the AoE nerf, now suddenly Necros have been elevated straight from "useless" to "overpowered - NERF IT" status. That's the problem with this whole mentality. Just play the game as it is, and make your own challenges - because otherwise, everyone will always be crying to nerf something, until (as I said) all we're doing in the game is sitting around a fire trading witty remarks. Then thos will probably be nerfed too. ("Yo Momma Jokes are overpowered, and they need to be NERFED!")

Actually - farming meant (to me) still having something to work toward after having completed the game 3x. Is it petty silly and useless? Sure it is - but it's still a goal. Without that goal i would have gotten bored and moved on from the game long ago. So in that light - is it really such a bad thing?

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

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Originally Posted by striderkaaru

if you feel like this "trick" is the only thing that makes you useful, then i would seriously suggest taking a second look at the skills at your disposal. i don't mean to be harsh, but if you were really good, you wouldn't need this trick.

Clarification on this.

My favorite character to play is a necro. Always has been.
I don't think that gear farming is the only thing that makes her useful. The reason I said "useless" in quotes is - ask anyone who has played a necro, ranger, or mesmer - we spent a lot fo time being told that our character was "useless" and playing hell trying to get into PUGs. I had a necro that (prior to ascention, as a lvl 18) could solo hydras in the crystal desert - and she was "useless." Suddenly, in SF, people are realizing that necros are useful - and especially in 5 man farming groups. In fact, so useful that now suddenly I'm seeing cries to nerf necros of all things!

It's another illustration of how nerfing gets out of hand, and one nerf naturally leads to another, which leads to another. Some people, I fear, won't be happy until the game consists only of warriors who fight, and monks who heal.

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Your assumption is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Based on what I've read, you have still failed to present a case as to why the Keg/Book/Rod/Gear/Etc trick (aka exploit) should not be revamped. As myself and others have clearly explained, we agree it makes sense that the primary target be the person carrying the key item. HOWEVER, it should NOT be at the expense of the enemy itself. A party wouldn't sit there and let itself be destroyed over an item like the ones that the PCs are carrying. No...they would either regroup or change their tactics.

And to your point on "just play differently," that's bull ----. Everyone know here that any farming group you get into is going to be based on the item holding trick. That leaves grouping with henchies, which again, everyone knows is much less effective and fun (not to mention as challenging and dynamic when grouping with 4-5 man farming teams).

Please explain why it is so important that the holding trick must remain as is today, and quit taking shots at everyone else as just wanting to "nerf" this or that. Welcome to life...change is an inevitable part of it, and 99% of the time it's for the better.

We just want to make the game more challenging and realistic. If the gear trick stays, fine...then we need to make adjustments to the necro class, as the same theory applies for AoE's as a MM having the UNCHALLENGED opportunity to create 10+ minions. I think it would be stupid to do this though, as stated earlier, since leaving the holding item trick in place would just expose another unbalanced class.

Please, I'm looking to be convinced that the keg/book/gear/rod/etc trick is working as INTENDED. I understand it is currently working as DESIGNED. If someone from Anet reads this, I would REALLY appreciate some feedback on this.

Epinephrine · Nov 30, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Total agreement about the book/keg/staff/crystal trick in all areas. Elona is easy to do because once you get one crystal you bring it with you to get the second. You have a perfect aggro grabber. These AI flaws should be fixed. The minion thing, maybe. I can see why it would make sense, but I've said it before - if the enemy were smart we'd all be dead. They wouln't engage 50 feet from their buddies, they'd fall back and call for help, drums would start pounding and 300 dwarves would rip you a new one. At some level it has to be a playable game - yes, smarter, not too smart. Imagine if each group played a falling back/gather friends tactic, with a runner gathering up more mobs for you. Yeah, that'd be great. Nothing like an alarm bell ringing to make it more fun...

Tweak the AI a bit, sure. Ditch the auto aggro on the gear/book/crystal guy, make it more of a tendency. If you do this though, PLEASE put in pet controls, and improve henchman AI or control so my mesmer can actually tab over to a guy without all the henchies losing their concentration and running around like chickens with heads cut off. A mesmer needs to do suppression, not focus fire, and I can't do that if the henchies immediately follow my targetting.

Huksa Duke · Nov 30, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Tweak the AI a bit, sure. Ditch the auto aggro on the gear/book/crystal guy, make it more of a tendency. If you do this though, PLEASE put in pet controls, and imporve henchman AI or control so my mesmer can actually tab over to a guy without all the henchies losing their concentration and running around like chickens with heads cut off. A mesmer needs to do suppression, not focus fire, and I can't do that if the henchies immediately follow my targetting.

I agree with the pet comment. I won't elaborate since I have read other threads on this, but it is surprising this is not in the game already. I agree with The Acolyte on Damon's comments. I do not see the case being made as to whether the "trick" is doing what Anet wanted it to do. It could be, but I am interested in hearing what Anet has to say. I know I am tired of every player I meet setting up a sf or fow group relying on this trick. What benefit does it bring to the game?

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

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Originally Posted by Epinephrine

The minion thing, maybe. I can see why it would make sense, but I've said it before - if the enemy were smart we'd all be dead.

I completely agree, and just to clarify, if the holding item trick is adjusted then as of right now I am NOT advocating a change to the MM. It's an either/or. My gut tells me there will be future class adjustments that will need to be made if the holding item trick is left as is and the MM adjustment implemented. That's why I think the holding item trick (exploit) needs to be changed. Not completely nerfed necessarily, though maybe that's the answer. At the very least it needs to be adjusted so that the enemy doesn't sacrifice itself for the item.

Again, would really love for Anet to provide feedback whether this is an unintended flaw or error between INTENTIONS vs DESIGN.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Based on what I've read, you have still failed to present a case as to why the Keg/Book/Rod/Gear/Etc trick (aka exploit) should not be revamped. As myself and others have clearly explained, we agree it makes sense that the primary target be the person carrying the key item. HOWEVER, it should NOT be at the expense of the enemy itself. A party wouldn't sit there and let itself be destroyed over an item like the ones that the PCs are carrying. No...they would either regroup or change their tactics.

And you have failed to establish why it should be changed. It comes down to "I think everyone should play this way" vs. "Let people play the way that they want."

I don't really care about this particular topic - I'm just tired of the continual "Nerf this, change that to make people play the way I think the game should be played." That's what I am making a case for. You play it your way, I'll play it mine. That way, we're all happy.

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And to your point on "just play differently," that's bull ----. Everyone know here that any farming group you get into is going to be based on the item holding trick. That leaves grouping with henchies, which again, everyone knows is much less effective and fun (not to mention as challenging and dynamic when grouping with 4-5 man farming teams).

once again, you fail to justify why things should be changed to make them the way you want them to be. That's really what it comes down to. I had to adapt to not being able to get parties, and having to group with henchies because everyone wants to be run - why shouldn't you adapt to the way most people want things to be?

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Please explain why it is so important that the holding trick must remain as is today, and quit taking shots at everyone else as just wanting to "nerf" this or that. Welcome to life...change is an inevitable part of it, and 99% of the time it's for the better.

Life doesn't change to be what you want it to be, just because you want it that way. Welcome to life. Life, like everything else, is about adapting. And to say that all I'm doing is "taking shots" is being small-minded. As small minded as trying to force everyone into playing the way you think it should be played.

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We just want to make the game more challenging and realistic. If the gear trick stays, fine...then we need to make adjustments to the necro class, as the same theory applies for AoE's as a MM having the UNCHALLENGED opportunity to create 10+ minions. I think it would be stupid to do this though, as stated earlier, since leaving the holding item trick in place would just expose another unbalanced class.

Again - this is the crux of the problem. Every time we nerf something, the natural progression is to nerf something else. This shouldn't be a game of "let's see what we can nerf next" - it should be a game of improvizem, adapt, overcome. Build a better build. Create a better strategy. In essence, the problem here isn't that we need to make things "more challenging and realistic" - it is that we can't come up with a strategy as effective - and we don't want to play that way - ergo, the entire game should be changed for us. That's not the way it should work. I have never in my time here made a case that the entire game should be changed because I think something isn't fair/challenging/balanced. Rather than that, I accept that either I adapt to it, or come up with a different way. Is that such a stretch to ask players to do - just play?

Again - seriously - if you want more of a challenge, then create more of a challenge. There's always people who want to try new things - many of which have multiple character types. Want to try something new? Pop me a message online - I'll bring a non-keg warrior, I'll bring a necro, or I'll bring a smiting elementalist and we'll try. But if your only idea is "make a warrior fight" in a 5 man farming team, then count me out - because it'll take more of a strategy than that. If you can come up with a way of having the warrior fight, and adding some new idea to how to get the party through (aside from using a focus item and having it take 5x as long) then let's give it a shot...

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

And you have failed to establish why it should be changed. It comes down to "I think everyone should play this way" vs. "Let people play the way that they want."

I thought we all have painted the picture very clearly. It's based on the fact that the current setup faciliates and environment of mindless playing. This is creating a gaming environment where those with skill are unable to apply that skill, and those without skill continue to NOT develop that skill. Isn't it sad that the holding item trick is used in EVERY farming run in SF and FoW? These zones are supposed to be for experienced players to make the game post ascension exciting and challenging. Instead, it's easy and takes no skill. This is the problem I'm addressing.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

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Originally Posted by The Acolyte

I thought we all have painted the picture very clearly. It's based on the fact that the current setup faciliates and environment of mindless playing. This is creating a gaming environment where those with skill are unable to apply that skill, and those without skill continue to NOT develop that skill.

Those who *truely* have skill will adapt, and find new ways of playing - rather than trying to force everyone else into playing the way they think it should be played. If people don't want to develop skill, that's their choice, and they will pay for it in the end. This is why I play my characters, instead of get them run. But I'm not demanding an end to running. Get the point?

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Life doesn't change to be what you want it to be, just because you want it that way. Welcome to life. Life, like everything else, is about adapting. And to say that all I'm doing is "taking shots" is being small-minded. As small minded as trying to force everyone into playing the way you think it should be played.

oh...take some of your own advice. I'm working to create a more challenging environment by changing what I perceive as an unitended flaw in Anets design of agro around holding these items. We ALL adapt to these changes EVERY update. Do you complain and argue every week because they are changing the game design based on how they think we should be playing??

I would really like to see Anet's response on whether it is working as intended, as this would either bolster my case or I'll gladly shut up.

You're pushing for the exploitation to stay in place because that's what people are comfortable with. But you haven't explained, again, why the current design is NOT flawed. I think myself and every here has done a fantastic job of clearly and concisely painting that picture.

darkdragon99 · Nov 30, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

i think all of you are mindless complainers this is just another subject no one but the select few care about there is no point in complaining.just like traders spamming wtb wts in local chat there is no point in it because your far out numberd.

you know Anet can't go about pissing off all the players to suit the elistist sum they would lose money

Carinae · Nov 30, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I have a few comments.

1) And I'm sorry if I make anyone mad (not my intention), but I find it humorus that an E/Me is calling for the nerf of the class that replaced them. We necro's have been second-class characters for sooooooooo long, and suddenly were valuable and there are calls to nerf us. THAT'S FUNNY.

2) Your idea to have mobs target the MM is actually already in place. I can solo everywhere upto Port Sledge using Minions. And EVERY enemy targets me, or tries to. Pick-and Roll. It's easy to put minions between you and the enemy. The gear trick does keep anyone from attacking me, but without it, I would do just fine. And there would be NO appreciable slowdown in farming.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

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Originally Posted by The Acolyte

oh...take some of your own advice. I'm working to create a more challenging environment by changing what I perceive as an unitended flaw in Anets design of agro around holding these items. We ALL adapt to these changes EVERY update. Do you complain and argue every week because they are changing the game design based on how they think we should be playing??

No. I play the game as it is. I adapt to the game, and the changing nature of it. I don't try to change the game. I adapt to the things that other players are doing that I may not like personally, such as running instead of playing.

If they make changes, they make changes - that is their right as developers.
As I see it, I have 3 options:
1. Live with and adapt to the game and the way people play it.
2. Quit playing.
3. Try to force others into playing the way I think the game should be played.

As I like the game, and don't want to quit, #2 is out. As I believe that everyone should be able to play as they see fit, #3 is out. That leaves #1.

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You're pushing for the exploitation to stay in place because that's what people are comfortable with. But you haven't explained, again, why the current design is NOT flawed. I think myself and every here has done a fantastic job of clearly and concisely painting that picture.

I don't need to establish why the current design is not flawed. The current design is as it is, and many people are happy with it. And yes, you have established well what you think is wrong. I won't argue that. But you have still failed to establish why you think that everyone should be subjected to a game change to bring the game in line with how you want to play it. See - your main complaint is "there aren't enough people who want to play the way i want to play" and your solution, rather than adapting, is to force others to play the way you want to play. Therein is the crux of the problem.

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I have a few comments.

1) And I'm sorry if I make anyone mad (not my intention), but I find it humorus that an E/Me is calling for the nerf of the class that replaced them. We necro's have been second-class characters for sooooooooo long, and suddenly were valuable and there are calls to nerf us. THAT'S FUNNY.

2) Your idea to have mobs target the MM is actually already in place. I can solo everywhere upto Port Sledge using Minions. And EVERY enemy targets me, or tries to. Pick-and Roll. It's easy to put minions between you and the enemy. The gear trick does keep anyone from attacking me, but without it, I would do just fine. And there would be NO appreciable slowdown in farming.

You forget that I mainly play a monk now, so somewhat of a spin on motivation (THOUGH, it is part of my motivation as I agree with the reasoning behind the AoE update). I'm all for the AoE update...do a search and read all of my posts on the subject. I also discussed it BEFORE the patch went in as something I think needed to be adjusted. Also, I totally disagree that necro's were second class characters. I was grouping with necros wayyyyy before the AoE update took place. And the AoE patch doesn't slow down my ele from finding a group to farm with either; it's the player that matters, not the class.

I'm glad you mention your technique to be honest. That represents skillful playing, and THAT is what I'm trying to promote here. Something that contains challenge and keeps those who have beat the game on their toes. The current situation is lame...every group you get in to farm sf or fow HAS to use the holding item trick. No skill, no challenge...pretty lame for an "advanced" zone don't you think?

EDIT: just noticed i didn't update my profile...thanks!

striderkaaru · Nov 30, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by darkdragon99

you know Anet can't go about pissing off all the players to suit the elistist sum they would lose money

then why did anet add dying nightmares into uw? why did anet nerf prot bond? why did anet implement the aoe AI change?

anet is taking steps in the right direction, and turning this game away from being mindless. and they're not afraid to do it.

@carinae
i don't think the OP ever mentioned nerfing necros. there is no mention of nerfing anything. just a fix for this current exploit. even without the book trick, necros will still be as powerful. i have a necro too, so i'm not just speaking from a warrior's perspective.

The Acolyte · Nov 30, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

No. I play the game as it is. I adapt to the game, and the changing nature of it. I don't try to change the game. I adapt to the things that other players are doing that I may not like personally, such as running instead of playing.

If they make changes, they make changes - that is their right as developers.
As I see it, I have 3 options:
1. Live with and adapt to the game and the way people play it.
2. Quit playing.
3. Try to force others into playing the way I think the game should be played.

As I like the game, and don't want to quit, #2 is out. As I believe that everyone should be able to play as they see fit, #3 is out. That leaves #1.

Why are you in these forums then??!! The point of these forums is to discuss game design and identify opportunities to make the game better. You should be arguing with the administrator to get rid of these forums based on your quote.

Look, you've identified you don't like the update, and that's fine. But to tell myself and others that we are in the wrong to provide feedback on enhancing or changing elements of the game in a forum that promotes this line of thinking is asinine.

EDIT: I have played and will continue to play the game as is. My request is that the game be adjusted so that the "advanced" levels are at the very least designed to be played as an advanced player.

Hiryu · Nov 30, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

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The AI needs to be balanced in SF

I totally agree. The state of the PvE end-game stinks as it is.

I personally find farming stupidly boring, but it's unfortunately a necessity if you want to strut your pretty-looking PvE character into PvP. And really, given a choice, who doesn't? This is supposed to be an RPG after all.

A.net should probably try to aim for extreme and massive deflation somehow and just make Fissure Armor and rare items, etc. way cheaper in the future if they're trying to achieve their goal of more cooperative gameplay and let "casual players" be able to bid on rare items.

As for the issue of a lack of greens, they could just increase the drop rate when things settle down.

/signed!

RotteN · Nov 30, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

if you want versatile action, you're playing the wrong gametype... pvp all the way, cause human reactions >>> AI

since when do you need to make pve omgwtfhard to play ? i play pve to relax, have some fun with friends. I don't realy care that it's easy, if i want a challenge, i get a gvg or tomb party rollin', and then you can bring out your best skills, ideas and reflexes, and actually play on the edge.